Donahue: Sure. I know of another case where somebody got one of their employee’s hearing aids.

Michael: Another powerful way business could use trade dollars is special events. Have you ever used trade for a special event for your business?

Donahue: Well, sure. That is quite common especially at Christmas time and there have been other times where we signed up a hotel or catering company or whatever. I’ve had parties where I have a caterer on barter and have like a ballroom or hotel conference room and the people put the two together and bring their employees there for a party and it’s all paid for by the caterer on barter and the hotel for the conference room on barter. So promotions like that are common, too.

Michael: How about employee training programs? Have you ever done any training using trade?

Donahue: Yes in a way because there are people who have seminars and on a couple of occasions I know I have sent people to those seminars to help the people either with sales or public relations or whatever. I know a lot of the high tech brokers have sent their employees or their people that work for them to seminars because there are a lot of people that put on seminars on barter or exchanges.

Michael: Here is one; benefit packages. How would you create benefit packages on trade to help your business or help you hire the right people?

Donahue: Well sure, with employees I mean I would set them up with an employee account and this has been all through the barter system. I mean even our members will set up an employee account where I will set up the account, I’ll pay for the cost of putting the money into the account or barter and this is an incentive for my people because if I’m putting $500, $600, $700, $800 or whatever in the special account they have and then I give them the checks they can use the checks to purchase medical, or travel, or they can go stay in a nice hotel or do whatever they want to with it. It’s like a perk for them and they are just using the money that I have put in their ITex employee account. You are listening to an exclusive interview found on Michael Senoff’s HardToFindSeminars.com.

Michael: How would you work that? Let’s say you hired me as an employee, what is the deal going to be? I come on as an employee and you are going to say, “Michael, I’ll set up an employee account for you,” and what are my restrictions on it?

Donahue: The restrictions are that it’s an employee account so the only person that can put money in the account is the broker, me. So I would put money in that account then I would get the company to print up checks just like a regular member, you would have ITex trade drafts and you could use those trade drafts to go spend that money that is in that account. You can’t put money, you couldn’t go out and sell something and put money into the account. It is an employee bonus account where I put money into it for you to use on whatever you wish.

Michael: Do you put money into it based on performance, or every month or what?

Donahue: It could be based on the arrangement that you have. It could a monthly organizational situation or you could give the person a bonus or use it at your discretion. You could put it into whatever you wanted for whatever.

Michael: Can you use barter as a powerful way to create incentive programs within your business to get better productivity?

Donahue: Sure, a lot of people especially in the barter system, I mean all the brokers throughout the nation have trade directors; people who call other members and talk to people about the barter system. If they reach certain totals of sales or whatever they are doing you have bonuses that you give them in barter. There again, it can go back to their employee accounts; you can have incentive bonus and put the money in their employee account and they can spend on whatever they want. They can take a trip down to the Florida Keys or whatever is available or they can spend it for medical bills.

Michael: You outline ten of your best trade deals and I think these stories are really important for people interested in considering getting into barter. Can we talk about some of these stories?

Donahue: Sure Michael: The first one you have is you had a carpet cleaning and chemical company and you used ITex’s co-op program for advertising and got a Ritz Carleton Hotel account. First, I want you to tell me what the ITex co-op program is and how an ITex member will benefit from it and then tell me how you used it specifically to get the Ritz Carleton Hotel account?

Donahue: ITex is one of the few companies that have the old fashioned co-op advertising program. What that is, is when a person is a member of ITex and they have money in their ITex account they can go through any of the advertisers, be it radio, print, Internet, whatever it is and they can go to another member and say, “I want to advertise my business in your periodical,” or whatever it is. What happens then is they will take out an ad and they will pay the standard price. If the ad is say $500 cash, they will pay $500 barter for their ad? But they will pay with an ITex barter check. Once that is paid and that ad comes out, the ad must have a small ITex logo. The logo has to be 5% of the ad and when that ad comes out, the original ad is forwarded to the ITex Corporation and if the ad costs $500 or whatever it is they will put 50%, half of the ad cost back into that member’s account. So if a member advertised $10,000 in barter over a period of a year, he would get back $5,000 into his account to be able to spend that $5,000 again. And when he spends that $5,000 he would get $2,500 back.

Michael: So just by signing up with ITex and doing advertising with any of the medias represented within the ITex directory nationwide I can get 50% on my advertising as long as I advertise 5% of that ad which is pretty minute with an ITex logo.

Donahue: That is right. It’s a pretty unique program that a lot of people take advantage of and it works. It’s a great way to use it.

Michael: Now because you use this co-op program you were able to get the Ritz Carleton Hotel account?

Donahue: Yes, I was taking out small ads in different papers but when co-op program came along I started taking out quarter page and half page ads. Soon after I started taking out the larger ads for my carpet cleaning and my chemical company I received a call from housekeeping at the Ritz Carleton in Naples, which at that time was a new hotel here in town. They called me and asked me to come over and they were having their grand opening on Thanksgiving Day and this was about two weeks before Thanksgiving and they had a problem. Their beautiful, expensive carpet had paint on the floor. So workmen had walked through some paint and walked through the hotel and got paint all over their carpet. They asked me if I could clean it. It was a big job and I had to go out and hire extra people to do it, but we had the chemicals to get the paint out of the carpet and then we used carpet cleaning equipment to re-clean it to get any odor and everything out of the carpet. The whole job, which took me a little over a week, I was paid $40,000 cash. After that I got the contract for not only the carpet cleaning but then housekeeping started buying 55 gallon drums of chemicals from me. So the whole account basically put my company on the map.

Michael: How much in gross sales do you think that one account was worth to you because of that one ad?

Donahue: Probably $100,000 a year.

Michael: So because you advertised using the co-op program you generated $100,000 a year with the Ritz Carleton.

Donahue: That is right.

Michael: Was this for multiple years?

Donahue: We did it for about three or four years before I sold the company. One of the furniture companies I had a hard time getting them to join ITex and I went into the store one day and they were having a large sale. I said, “Why are you selling all of this furniture on sale when I can get you 100% of the price on ITex?” He said, “Well, how can I spend my money?” I told him if you sell this sofa right here that you have listed for $2,000, but the real price is $3,000, you are just discounting the price. I told him if you sell it to me on barter or one of my members for $3,000, you can take that $3,000 and you can use it for co-op advertising and over the period of time that you use it, I’ll give you another $3,000 in the Corp and you can spend that $3,000. I said, “You are going to get $6,000 in trade for that sofa that you are trying to sell for $2,000 cash.” He signed up immediately.

Michael: That is a perfect illustration. Here is a story from one of your members who belongs to ITex. He bought his wife a $12,000 diamond wedding ring on trade. Tell me about that.

Donahue: Quite often diamond rings, emerald rings, all jewelry comes up on trade and I signed up a new jewelry store in Ft. Meyers and the fellow wanted to trade over $100,000 worth of jewelry. One of my members went up to see him and the first trade he did with him was a beautiful $12,000 diamond ring, which is a wedding ring for his wife.

Michael: Now, this member, what particular business was he in? Do you know and how was he earning his trade dollars?

Donahue: I think he had an office supply store and he had made his money by selling office supplies, fax machines and things like that.

Michael: What I’m trying to figure out here is he paid $12,000 in trade, but as an example, let’s say my business, for instance, lets say I’m selling seminars from my Web site, www.HardToFindSeminars.com

Donahue: Sure. And this fellow that had this business his costs of trade in goods was somewhere between 35% and 40%. So that diamond ring, in reality, probably only cost him about $5,000. and my line of 14 different products are basically all digital products. I’ve put some work into them but let’s say one of my products is $6,000 and it’s an all digital product. So if I sell two of those and then I go take that trade and buy a diamond wedding ring from your jewelry store for $12,000 in trade, my cost other than my production costs which has been done years ago, it’s all profit. So my $12,000 diamond ring really only cost me the 12% cash fees that I paid to the ITex exchange?

Michael: Number three; one of your members sold you two waterfront lots for $40,000 trade and three years later you sold them for $190,000 cash. Tell me this story.

Donahue: Well, it was about three or four years ago and there was a fellow up in Ft. Meyers, High Acres, and had a sign out in front of his building that he was selling lots and so I stopped in to talk to him and he thought that ITex was a good deal. He said, “Maybe I can move some lots.” This guy, they call him Dr. Dirt, the guy sells a lot of land. He signed up and maybe six months later he called me and told me that he had six lots that he’d like to sell and three of them are canal waterfront lots and three of them are not. So I ended up buying the three waterfront lots, two other members bought the other lots, which they in turn did sell for cash, also. I held on to mine until about a year and a half ago and a year and a half ago over in Cape Coral, Florida, prices started to go up and I sold two of the lots, one of them for $120,000 and the other lot for $70,000 and I had only paid $40,000 trade for those two. I still have the third lot and I have not sold it.

Michael: Wow. How did those sales come about? Did you actively pursue them or advertise them or did people approach you?

Donahue: No, I contacted a realtor that I had on trade and he sold them and he traded his commission on trade so I didn’t have to pay a commission. I had to pay trade for his commission to sell the lots.

Michael: Here is another great story; one of your members uses the co-op advertising program to advertise in an airline magazine. It cost him $8,000 in ITex trade and he was reimbursed 50%, which we talked about, for the ad and for the ad he had a $70,000 sale. Tell me this story.

Donahue: That is true. One of the brokers, I don’t have him, but the broker in Tampa, Florida, has a connection with ten airlines for their in-flight magazine and a member took out an ad, the ad was a half page ad for $8,000 in ITex and he paid money, the ad came out and he was reimbursed by the ITex Corporation, $4,000 was put back in his account and about two weeks later someone on the airline that was flying saw the ad that he had out and purchased $70,000 worth of his product.

Michael: So here is another very powerful method for any business to really put trade to use and we’ve seen three incredible examples with it and that is advertising. Is advertising the backbone of the trade industry?

Donahue: No, I wouldn’t say that. If you are talking about the trade industry you are talking about a lot of different Mom and Pop and other barter companies. ITex is the only national barter company that does co-op.

Michael: And that is a huge advantage. So let’s say I’m considering some of these other small, Mom and Pop advertising.

Donahue: Right.

Michael: So this one reason alone is enough of a reason that I should go with ITex compared to—

Donahue: Sure, plus they are nationwide, they have a nationwide marketplace Web site, they also have 24,000 members across the United States and Canada so it’s a big plus.

Michael: Here is another story; you talk about one of your members, a hotel owner, just used his ITex trade dollars for him and his wife who spent two weeks at a Villa in Spain. So travel and vacation all over the world is available in trade.

Donahue: That is one of the strong points of the barter system. There are unlimited amounts of hotels, bed and breakfasts, and travel opportunities in the system. And there are a lot of individuals, things that come up on a daily basis, I mean the vacation in the Villa in Spain was a member who lives in the States also owns a Villa in Spain and he put the Villa up for rent because he wasn’t using it that month and so that’s another way that somebody can make money on ITex is if you have property or have something that you can rent when you aren’t using it and that was the case. Then one of my members who owns a hotel here in Naples, he and his wife purchased the two weeks and went to the Villa. In fact they just came back recently and they said it was fantastic. For more exclusive interviews on business, marketing, advertising and copywriting go to Michael Senoff’s HardToFindSeminars.com.

Michael: I’m looking at some of the emails you send out and I’m going to be giving the listeners a special way to sign up to get on your email hot list, whether you are a member of trade or if you are considering it so they can see the different things that are available on trade. I’m looking here at Vega vacations with airfare, Chicago apartment rental, Florida real estate for sale, condo rental in Miami Beach, Colorado rentals, Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, Costa Rica Thanksgiving week, Arkansas property for sale. I mean it’s just incredible the array of different vacations, land opportunity, products and services available. You guys do a magnificent job in keeping your members abreast of some of the best deals out there. I mean Hawaii on barter. So can someone get airfare, accommodations, and the whole package on trade?

Donahue: Sometimes. Airfare is one of the most difficult items to get. Last year I had $100,000 worth of Alaska Air and that was one of the first times that I had an airline to give that much travel and of course for 24,000 members, that disappeared in about two days.

Michael: Wow. How did you get it?

Donahue: It was through a promotional company in Washington, DC, a fellow I know that had access to the vouchers for the airlines and he bartered them.

Michael: Here is another one of your stories; you signed up a national clothing manufacturer and sold $200,000 worth of clothing for them. Tell me about that.

Donahue: There is a company that manufactures clothes in Ft. Meyers, Florida. It is a national company and they have thousands of stores all over the United States and they wanted to move a lot of their surplus clothing. Clothing manufacturers manufacture more clothing than they can sell and so they offered the clothing to me to put out on the marketplace and there was so much clothing that in order to do this I ended up renting a store downtown Naples and had the stores on display for our local members to come in and purchase the clothing at the store. Or, if members across the nation wanted to order, we put out a Web page with pictures of the clothing and people across the nation would buy the clothing and we would ship it to them. We did that for over a period of a year and a half and the store found out that we were doing such a fantastic job of moving it they started opening their own outlet stores and they still do it today.

Michael: Recently a top dentist who is a member asked you guys to sell $50,000 worth of dental certificates to other members. Now when you get an opportunity like that, how does that work? Do your members within your organization benefit first before it’s available to the whole nationwide exchange?

Donahue: Sure, and many cases like that because it was a local dentist so you put it out to your local people. Basically, what he was doing is he said, “Put out certificates worth $2,500 to $5,000, with a value of up to $50,000 total for the local members.” He wanted it to go out to our people. Now, if people from other surrounding areas, like I have another fellow that does things like that, too, and people can come from other areas to use his services, but basically, most of these certificates were sold to our local people because he’s a local dentist.

Michael: So at $2,500 to $5,000 he’s doing like dental surgery, bridge work, crowns, stuff like that?

Donahue: Yeah, he’s a cosmetic dentist so he does almost anything. He’s very high end, one of the better dentists in Naples, Florida.

Michael: Here is another story; you arranged for a member that has a newspaper to use his trade to purchase large printing presses. Tell me about that.

Donahue: Yeah, I have a member that puts out a nice, small newspaper that goes to country clubs, yacht clubs, and high end condominiums. It’s an in-house newspaper and he puts out maybe 50 or 60 of these to the communities and does his own printing, he has his own sales staff and has an in-house business. A couple of years ago he mentioned that he needed some new equipment, more equipment so I put out a email across the nation that he was looking for printing equipment. Another broker, I think it was in the Ohio area, said that he had equipment like that. So we put the two people together and my member ended up purchasing I think it was about $30,000 worth of equipment.

Michael: You had the Naples ITex office. Did you end up buying another one after that?

Donahue: Yes, I have a business partner and we do business together and he owned the ITex office over in the Florida Keys, so he and I started buying about two years, there were two offices in Denver that came for sale through ITex offices so he bought one and I bought the other. Since then we have bought Vancouver, Canada, Birmingham, Alabama, Peoria, Illinois, part of Ft. Lauderdale, Florida and two offices in Los Angeles. All together, we have purchased nine offices and I’m negotiating right now to buy another one so we’ll have ten offices, hopefully, by the end of the month.

Michael: Do you have more offices than any other broker out there?

Donahue: Yes, we have the most offices. Most brokers have one office and maybe two at the most. We are the only people that are buying up more offices because we have both been in business for years, he’s a CPA and he understands the business and I’ve been in business all of my life and I have set up maybe 30 or 40 businesses in my lifetime and so we know how to organize and understand the whole situation of the barter and running a business throughout the country.

Michael: So Don Schmidt was the owner of ITex office here in Southern California and Don was with ITex for a long time, a lot of the members knew him very well and he was a good broker. So when did this opportunity to buy out Don occur?

Donahue: Well, there were two offices out there. Don Schmidt and Steve Milner both had offices in and around the Orange County area. I had known both of them pretty well from going to conventions and over the years. Steve Milner first approached me that he might be interested in selling his ITex franchise. I purchased that from him and I heard that Don Schmidt might be interested so I called him last summer and talked to him about his selling it and over a period of about two months we kept negotiating and finally in October of 2008 I bought it from him and I merged the two offices together, which now gives us 240 members in Orange County. Some people really, really understand barter and some, as much as you work with them, really don’t. We try and work with the people, try and train them and teach them everything there is about barter. We stay in contact with our people and send out 10 to 15 emails a day and try and help them as much as we can. I just had a fellow call a few minutes ago in Los Angeles and he was looking for men’s clothing. Well, my wife and I both got on the Internet and also cued up the ITex marketplace and we found a few men’s clothing stores for him. So it is the broker, it’s our business to help the people find what they want to find and answer their questions.

Michael: So when a new member comes on what they are going to get from you is you and Katie, your wife, are there to help them spend their money, help them find the things that they can spend with trade to conserve cash and ultimately keep more money in their pocket.

Donahue: Sure, and we promote their business. I mean, we advertise, we promote it to the other members; we try and help them with co-op if they have a certain product or things they are trying to move. We try and move it not only with our members but we’re trying to get them to advertise so that they can advertise and sell some of their products and goods for cash. So we try and help them get cash along with barter.

Michael: Okay, what is it going to cost for someone who wants to get started. They’ve listened to these stories, it sounds like a good idea, they are operating a business and they believe that they have products and services that they could offer on trade. What are the details?

Donahue: To become a member of ITex the charges for ITex at the present time, there is no sign up fee. You can join ITex with no down payment. Now in the past, people have been paying anywhere between $400 and $1,000 to join up. But at the present time, you can join up, there is a special program going on, you can join at no cost. The ongoing cost, once you are a member, ITex Corporation charges you $20 a month to be a member. Now, when you sign the application you are signing an application, not a contract. The application is day to day. If you sign up for one month and decide it’s not for you, you can get out the next month and its fine. Most people don’t do that, but it is just a guarantee from us that you aren’t signing your life away. It is just an application. You tell us what you want to trade, you tell us how you want to trade and the whole situation and we’ll do that. That costs you $20 a month to be a member and $10 in trade out of your account every month. So it costs you $30 a month, $20 in cash, $10 in trade. Then when you trade, and you get into the system and when you selling product and money goes into your account you pay 6% in cash. When you spend that money you also will spend 6% in cash and that will be charged to a credit card that you give us or an EFT out of a bank account if that is your desire. So you are basically paying only $20 a month to be a member and 6% transaction fee. That is the only cash that is involved.

Michael: Once I’m a member how will I be able to find all the products and services that are available in trade throughout the United States and Canada?

Donahue: The first thing we do on the application when we fill it out is we give you a password to go into our national site to look at marketplace and the directory of goods that other people have. The other thing that we do is once you are a member we have your email address and we constantly send you emails to keep you abreast of what is for sale and what’s available in the ITex system.

Michael: Actually, I’m thinking about joining but I’m afraid that there is not going to be enough product and services that I can spend my ITex money with. How many different types of products and services are up on the Web site that I can look at and choose where I’m going to spend my money?

Donahue: In the ITex system there are about 24,000 business owners in the United States and Canada. So every day and every hour, people are putting things on the Web site that are for sale. So it is ever changing. I tell people it’s almost like an eBay except you don’t bid on it. If you see something in there you just simply contact the person and you buy it. But there are thousands of items on there and it changes every day. Once you sign up and become a ITex member you get an account number which is exactly like a bank, we print ITex checks for you, they are sent to you, we act like the bank any time you need checks we will print new checks for your. There is an online directory of all the members across the nation so you can always have a directory. I’ll give you an example; we are a bank and if you need a loan, we loan barter dollars. I once had a dentist that wanted to buy some dental equipment that was $20,000, but he only had $10,000 in his account. He called me and I arranged for ITex Corporation to loan him $10,000 in barter, he signed a note that he would do $10,000 in dental work and we loaned the money to him and he bought the $20,000 in dental equipment from an ITex member in California and it was all shipped back to him here in Florida. Now, when he borrowed that $10,000 what he did was agreed to pay interest. Now we’re an ITex bank, a barter bank and he was charged one and a half percent interest in trade, not cash, which is a wonderful thing. He didn’t have to pay any cash for borrowing that money. The interest he paid back, the one and a half percent interest was in trade.

Michael: I know there are a lot of businesses hurting cash and the banks are so tight right now, I mean I could see anyone who has cash flow problems can sign up just for that reason alone to see if they can get established and get a loan and not have to pay back cash interest.

Donahue: Right.

Michael: Okay, you said ITex Corporation will send me a checkbook with my name and I can use those checks to spend money and then other people can fax me checks or send me checks, whether its personally or if they are not in my local area they can fax a check. I understand that ITex, the Web site, has a phone system and they make buying and selling very simple and paperless. Can you describe those two ways that a member can buy and sell online and then also through their phone system?

Donahue: Yes, you can purchase your goods and services. Let’s say like the marketplace, if you contact somebody and they have what you are looking for and they say, okay its $2,500. You would make out an ITex check for $2,500 to them; the check when it’s printed has your account number on the left hand corner. You can fax or mail that check to that person anthey call an 800 number that we have, its on the check, and they will give ITex Corporation your account number, their account number, the amount of the sale and they will get an authorization number which guarantees them that you have the money in your account. Once that check is authorized, they then send that check to their local broker who owns the local office. That broker, like a bank, pulls that money to the seller’s account, the money goes into his ITex account. He then ships the merchandise to whoever bought it across the nation. So you can buy and sell things nationwide by simple a phone call, finding out what you want, and faxing your draft.

Michael: Okay, now how is ITex and how are you going to help me sell my products and services? Is there anywhere I can advertise on the ITex Web site and work with your office to help promote my product or service so I can start earning ITex dollars instantly?

Donahue: There are two ways; number one when you sign up there is a directory page. You fill out that directory page with what you want sold and how you are going to sell items. When your account is set up that is immediately put on our Web site under your account. It is then sent to the marketplace so all 24,000 members can see what you want to sell. Now, let’s say hypothetically, that you don’t want it to go on the marketplace, that you only have two or three widget or whatever it is you’re selling and you want us to try and sell it locally for you. Then it won’t go on the marketplace. It is your choice. We will help you sell whatever you want. The second thing is with over 120 offices across the nation, each broker will send out emails to the other brokers of things they have for sale. I may get an email from somebody in Las Vegas that has a hotel for rent or a timeshare for sale. I in turn, will forward that to my members. We get a lot of emails that we know our members wouldn’t be interested in so we only send out the ones that we’re sure that our members are interested in and we forward it to our members. So they get emails from us. The same goes for when you, the member, gives us a service or a product that you want to sell, we immediately email it out to our local members or if it’s a product that can be sold nationwide, we immediately send it to all the members across the nation by the Internet. It’s a system we have that is called, Items For Sale, and it goes out to everyone. So we would promote your business to try and sell as much as you want us to sell. Over a period of time I get people that will call me and say, “Please, I want to sell this or I want to sell that.” A lot of times people, let’s say a man has a furniture company and he’s selling certain types of furniture. He may call me up and say I’ve got a 1998 Oldsmobile I want to sell. He can sell anything he wants to sell; he doesn’t have to sell just the products that he has in his business. If a person has a home for rent or anything that they have other than what they have listed, they can sell it or put it on barter and we will promote it for them.

Michael: Okay, let me ask you this; someone may be thinking I’ve heard about barter and some people remember that negative connotation with tax evasion. Can you answer that? How do the taxes work and for that super skeptical person out there that are going to ask if this is legal? Explain and address that issue and we’ll tackle it head on before it comes up as a question later.

Donahue: When ITex first got into business, we were registered as a third company record keeper. The IRS and Federal Government love us because we are the first company to start keeping records. We are a record keeping company; we keep track of all the transaction, you get statement every month online or in the mail if you want, and those statements and you’ll get one every four weeks, so you’ll get 13 statements in a year. At the end of the year in January, you’ll get a 1099B, for barter. That is reported to the Government. So everything is totally legal. Now, you are not dealing basically with a consumer, you are usually dealing with business to other businesses so many of the things, in fact most of the things that you are using would be business to business transaction and so you would have a tremendous amount of write offs. But everything is recorded and it’s all legal.

Michael: Let’s say I come on and I sign up and let’s say I’m going to go on vacation for a month. Can I put my account on hold where you won’t take the $30 out?

Donahue: No, you can’t go on hold that way. Once you are a member you will pay the $20 cash and the $10 trade. But if you want to go on hold for not trading; if you don’t want to trade anymore of your product we will put that on hold and we will announce it to all the members that you’re on hold and that you are not trading goods at this time and we’ll announce later when you begin trading.

Michael: Okay, so let’s say I’m ready to sign up, I contact you, what is going to happen after we talk on the phone? How are we going to take care of the details to get me signed up?

Donahue: To get you signed up, you can simply call our toll free number, and we will explain more in detail about the ITex, answer any questions you have and at that time I can email you or fax you the application, the paperwork that you need, and you simply can fill it out and fax it back to me and within 7 or 8 hours of the time I get it you’ll be set up as an ITex member and we will print the checks, get everything to you and we’ll start promoting your business and do our best to service you. It’s that simple.

Michael: Very good. This has been fascinating and educational. This has been great, Donahue. For more interviews like this, go to HardToFindSeminars.com